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Is there an idiomatic way to translate a phrase that begins with “imagine if…”? Ie, a phrase to introduce an imagined possibility. Something like:

Imagine if I won the lottery. I could buy a house!

I get the impression that “se” is more strictly logical than “if” in English. So if I translated it word-for-word as “imagu se mi gajnus la loterion”, it would have a weird meaning that I want you to imagine something but only if I won the lottery. Is that correct?

Would it be understandable to translate it like:

Imagu ke mi gajnus la loterion. Mi povus aĉeti domon!

6 Answers 6

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Mi kontrolis en la Tekstaro. Se mi serĉas imagu,? ke\b estas 84 rezultoj, do ŝajnas ke ĝi estas uzata esprimo.

Alikflanke se mi serĉas imagu,? se\b, aperas 15 rezultoj. Ili ja ŝajnas kiel uzoj por prezenti imagaton eblon. Ekzemple:

El Monato:

Imagu, se mi elparolus tiujn nomojn laŭ la direktivoj en MONATO

El La Granda Aventuro, Ferenc Szilágyi, 1931-1945:

Imagu, se ni povus havigi ankoraŭ dudek kilogramojn!

Do, ŝajnas al mi ke la frazo ja estas uzata. Eble oni povas pardoni la nelogikon se oni imagus ĝin kiel “imagu [tion kio okazus] se…”.

Tamen pro la plia ofteco de “imagu, ke”, eble tiu lasta estas pli bona.

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  • Ĉu vi povus redakti pro havigi ligon al la serĉoj en la Tekstaro?
    – Trey
    Commented Dec 21, 2019 at 15:30
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    @Trey Mi provis krei la ligilojn sed mi ŝajne trovis cimon en la Tekstaro. La ligilo aldonas duan “\” kaj la serĉo ne funkcias. Mi sendis mesaĝon al Bertilo por raporti ĝin. Commented Dec 23, 2019 at 9:12
  • Dankon; kiam vi havas ligon, bonvolu aldoni ĝin?
    – Trey
    Commented Dec 23, 2019 at 21:05
  • 2
    @Trey Bertilo riparis la cimon kaj la ligiloj nun funkcias 👍 Commented Dec 28, 2019 at 11:22
  • Ho, mojose! Dankon pro tio!
    – Trey
    Commented Dec 28, 2019 at 21:35
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I think you're right. While there is no doubt about

Se mi gajnus la loterion...

it might be ambiguous with imagu.

So I think

Imagu ke mi gajnus la loterion.

is much better. I'm not totally sure if it is correct in English to say Imagine that I would.... In German it's perfectly fine to say Stell dir vor, dass... and I think it's fine and understandable in Esperanto.

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In the book Complete Esperanto (by Tim Owen and Judith Meyer) appears the following sentence (in Esperanto and English):

Imagu, se oni farus tiel al katidoj aŭ al hundidoj!

Imagine if it were like that with kittens and puppies!

If that is the sense you are trying to convey, then it seems that your sentence (imagu se mi gajnus la loterion) is OK, maybe with a comma after imagu.

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How about (ni) supozu ke?

I’m going to take a different route than other responders. Searching La Tekstaro, it appears to me that changing words — from imagu to supozu — may idiomatically be the best choice to capture the connotations of “imagine if” you posit.

First, I just searched for imagu vs. supozu. Two things jump out immediately from the results:

  1. imagu is used mostly in direct quotation, while supozu is more-often used in the main text.
  2. imagu does, as your question points out, take either se or ke, with different connotations. But supozu seems to, almost always, use ke.

Then I compared two more-targeted searches. (If you don’t know regular expressions, I explain them below this answer.)

First, imagu\W?\s+[sk]e. Indeed, it appears frequently in direct quotations and only a few times in the first 100 results in the main text. As said, the usage of se and ke varies.

Finally, ne imagu occurs rather frequently—without always having the idiomatic meaning “don’t imagine…” has in English of being a mild or veiled threat (e.g., “don’t imagine you can continue to displease me”)—frequently, it is literally used as a negative imperative phrase.

On the other hand, a search for supozu\W?\s+[sk]e, returns ke vastly more often than se (you won’t even find supozu se in the linked search, you’ll have to expand the parameters to find it). Also, a large proportion of the results are in the main prose.

If you spot-check the results (you can tap the underlined matches to get a full paragraph’s context for each), it seems like the connotations of supozu ke is more along the lines of what you’re getting at—introducing and positing a hypothetical future for further consideration, rather than exhorting an expansion of the interlocutor’s mind (like, say, in John Lennon’s “Imagine”).

So while this isn’t a case of “false friends”, it does seem to me to be a case where the cognate isn’t the best choice since imagu supports much finer grains of subtlety. Supozu ke, however, seems to nearly always mean basically what you’re going for.

The one drawback, I think, is that if you’re talking about something like winning the lottery, Supozu! as an intensifying interjection doesn’t really work as Imagu! does.

I’d also note that the indirect first-person imperative ni supozu ke… (“let’s suppose that…”) seems to be as common, or nearly, as the second-person imperative supozu ke. As a main-prose introducer, both forms are semantically near-identical, as they are in English:

  • Suppose that the moon were made of green cheese…
  • Let’s suppose the moon were made of green cheese…

Writers differ in Esperanto, just as in English, on whether to use the first-person plural (“we” or ni) or the second person (“you” or vi, but usually—in both languages—just unstated) in such contexts.

They generally read the same, though I think in educational contexts (textbooks, explanatory essays, and so on) the first-person plural “let’s” is more frequently encountered, since the writer is trying to imply an active involvement by the reader. In La Tekstaro there seem to be many more attestations of ni supozu in early Esperanto history and more of (vi) supozu in more recent Esperanto.


p.s.: Regexes

The regular expressions imagu\W?\s+[sk]e and supozu\W?\s+[sk]e say this:

  1. imagu: Search for imagu or supozu. (Technically, this should probably be \bimagu and \bsupozu—beginning with a word boundary \b—to avoid cases where these are just the ends of longer words, but it didn’t matter in this case.)
  2. \W?: Once you’ve found that, look for a possible single non-word character—this is to allow for the possibility of a comma or other punctuation mark.
  3. \s+: Then look for some space so you separate imagu or supozu or imagu,, etc., from the following word.
  4. [sk]: Look for either an s or a k.
  5. e: Finally, look for an e to make se/ke. (Again, it would technically be more correct to end with another \b to avoid cases where se or ke begin a word, but again, it doesn’t really matter here.)
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Ĉe mi oni kutime diras:

Imagu nur, se mi ...

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  • Interese, sed ne ŝajnas al mi ke la “nur” solvus la problemon de la mallogika uzo de “se”. Se mi serĉas “imag\VF nur” en Tekstaro, aperas kelkaj ekzemploj de “imagu nur, ke”, sed neniu kun “se”. Commented Dec 11, 2019 at 8:26
  • Tiu imagu nur; ... apartenas al la familia uzo.. Mi ne scias ĉu oni trovus tiun konstruaĵon ofte en Tekstaro. Ĝi (ĉe ni, familie) rolas kiel enkonduka subfrazo (komence) kaj iel kiel interjekcio, kiam ĝi troviĝas fine. Ekzemple La intruistino volis lastsekunde aldoni temon al la ekzameno, imagu nur! Ni laŭte plendis. Commented Dec 11, 2019 at 12:12
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A side note…

Gajni (← (en) to gain ← (old French) gaaignier) means to win, to get something, like money or a point, in a game or in a competition.

gajni poenton aŭ premion en la matĉo/konkurso

I.e.

Imagu, ke mi gajnus en loterio.

Note, that if you win someone, you use another verb, venki.

Julio Cezaro venkis la pontanojn kaj gajnis gloron.

In neither case can you say gajni/venki ludon, because you aren't getting or winning the game itself. One might wonder how you say in games without any other opponent than the game itself.

solvi Kubon de Rubrik

venki en paciencludo

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    La 2-a difino de gajni en PIV tekstas jene: Superi la alian partion en ludbatalo: "gajni la ludon, la matĉon, la partion, la veton". Mi supozas, ke en gajni la loterion oni subkomprenas gajni la loteri-premion aŭ eĉ gajni en la loterio.
    – Vidamuzo
    Commented Dec 10, 2019 at 13:29
  • Vi pravas, ke PIV donas ankaŭ tiun difinon. Sed komparu ekz. kun Reta vortaro. Se vi serĉas inter tekstoj en Tekstaro.com, vi notas, ke tia uzo oftiĝas dum ĉi tiu jarcento, antaŭe la esprimo gajni + ludo aperas nur malofte. Do eblas, ke la signifo ŝanĝiĝas ĝuste nun. Commented Dec 11, 2019 at 7:20
  • Dankon pro la sugesto sed mi malsuprenvoĉdonas ĉar ĝi ne respondas al la demando. Commented Dec 11, 2019 at 8:23

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